S3 #5 | How can companies contribute to industry scale?: Gigaton thinking - with MASH Makes

[00:00:00] Tom, you know how we've been thinking about big thinking? Yes. How big do you actually reckon

[00:00:07] you can think? You personally, Tom provoking right now, how big do you actually think

[00:00:12] you can think? Well I think, well I think big. It actually scares me a little bit because

[00:00:18] I feel small personally. Okay so if you close your eyes and imagine yourself in the room

[00:00:24] right and then you can imagine your body and you can imagine the room with your

[00:00:28] body in it. Then you can imagine the house with the room in it with you in it and then

[00:00:32] you can go out and see the city, the country and then the world. How far out can you zoom?

[00:00:37] Oh I'm zoomed out. I'm zoomed out. Yeah. Just keeps going. Keeps going. Now I'm getting scared

[00:00:43] and now I feel like I've zoomed out too much. Bring it back. Bring it back. Deep breaths you are

[00:00:48] in your body. Reading it back in. Feel the ground beneath your feet. I'm back. Yeah.

[00:00:53] Oh that was big. Wow, that was powerful. I think we just had a moment.

[00:01:00] Hello hello and welcome back to the Carbon Remobile Show. Yes welcome back listeners. I'm Tom

[00:01:09] Perviti and I'm Emily Swaddle. This season we've been talking about the scale

[00:01:14] up of the carbon removal industry. What it might look like and what it might take to get

[00:01:19] to where we need to be. Indeed and in today's episode we're shifting

[00:01:23] the lens from an industry wide perspective to hone in on one company's view.

[00:01:29] While industry trends and big picture strategies are important, today we're asking how individual

[00:01:35] companies can navigate and contribute to the scale up. After all individual companies

[00:01:40] and the people who run them will ultimately be the innovators that drive the industry forward

[00:01:45] and ensure that their companies can meet the ever changing demands of external factors such as policy

[00:01:50] and market demand and so on. Particularly companies that actually deliver

[00:01:55] carbon removal. How can they innovate in such a way that supports scaling up both for themselves

[00:02:01] and for the wider industry? Yeah this is such an interesting take. I think my head has

[00:02:06] been so focused on the whole industry growing but I kind of forgot that it actually means

[00:02:11] individual companies. Yeah I know what you mean because you tend to spend a lot

[00:02:16] of time thinking in that macro space and we've been talking somewhat abstractly about

[00:02:21] getting to gigaton scale but our guest today from MashMakes introduced us to their

[00:02:27] idea of gigaton thinking. Indeed very cool and MashMakes are

[00:02:32] generously supporting this episode so thank you very much MashMakes. All right I'm

[00:02:37] ready to think big. Let's get into it. So MashMakes. MashMakes great name by the way.

[00:02:46] It is a great name, it's a memorable name and it's pretty appropriate because their technology

[00:02:51] is designed to make a lot of things biofuel hydrogen electricity and of course carbon removal

[00:02:58] credits. And a particular interest to us today, MashMakes

[00:03:03] is biochar from agricultural and agro processing residues. And if you didn't know what that means,

[00:03:09] do check out season one episode four of the carbon removal show. Yes anyway that input

[00:03:14] is low value biomass and that waste stream is saved from incineration. Circularity meets CDR.

[00:03:20] I'm liking this already. Let's let Jacob Anderson, CEO of MashMakes tell us more about

[00:03:26] how they got started. We're a technology spin-out from the technical University of Denmark

[00:03:31] and they are very, very good at this area called thermochemistry. So that stuff like

[00:03:36] pyrolysis which the listeners of this podcast will know very well but also similar technology

[00:03:42] another one is called thermal gasification so we use that as well. And the really sort of

[00:03:47] neat trick there, the really nice thing about this technology platform that we have access to

[00:03:52] is that it allows us to hit many different commodity targets both in terms of existing

[00:03:58] commodities. So stuff like energy products that could be electricity but also right now near

[00:04:03] term its biofuels but also it allows us to hit some of these emerging commodities like

[00:04:08] biochar and also very interesting the carbon removals. They really are just taking this tech

[00:04:14] and running with it and creating a pretty diverse portfolio for themselves. And it's clear

[00:04:19] that Jacob and MashMakes see these as co-products, the biochar, the carbon removal and ultimately

[00:04:24] the biofuels and the electricity which in a young and very changeable market seems like a

[00:04:29] wise path to take. All of these different venues that we have, that's a diversification. That also

[00:04:34] means that we are more resilient in terms of market changes. I suppose we are a little bit less

[00:04:41] worried if the permanence of biochar is landing here or here or here you know we can still

[00:04:46] make ends meet in one way or another even at lower carbon prices right? So that of course

[00:04:51] is an attractive feature of being diversified. This product makes obviously makes them more agile

[00:04:58] and able to respond to market needs. Currently the focus is on biochar and carbon removal but they also

[00:05:04] see biofuels as a major opportunity. An interesting point here made by Jacob is regarding their

[00:05:11] business focus. Research on biochar durability as we discussed in our year in review

[00:05:16] 2023 episode shows good results but for MashMakes it's less mission critical from a business perspective.

[00:05:22] Having fingers in all these pies is only one of the things that makes MashMakes interesting.

[00:05:28] They also have a strong focus on R&D as I think is evident when we take a look at their

[00:05:33] pyrolysis machines. Designed in-house and MashMakes owns all the IP, their machines are modular to

[00:05:40] facilitate ease of maintenance, updates and repairs and designed to fit into a storage

[00:05:45] container for easy transportation. Then their machines can be deployed at their destination using local

[00:05:50] biomass resources or waste streams. And this I think also speaks to another characteristics of the MashMakes

[00:05:56] philosophy, their international outlook. I think what makes the company interesting is that we

[00:06:01] sort of take that out of the Danish context and we try to figure out how this actually can be

[00:06:06] made to work internationally. Actually from the outset because one of my co-founders is

[00:06:10] Indian we actually have been as active in India as we have been in Denmark. And that has

[00:06:17] sort of opened our eyes to other markets than Denmark in Northern Europe which would be sort

[00:06:21] of the staples of a company like ours and then we've actually had a primary focus on India

[00:06:26] for the time being but also have done a lot of market development in places like Vietnam,

[00:06:31] Eastern Africa, South Africa, those parts of the world. So we have these solutions that essentially

[00:06:36] are the biggest version of whatever they came up with at the Tech Mode University of Denmark that still

[00:06:41] fits in a container. That's kind of our basic idea because you want to be able to deploy these things

[00:06:46] very quickly and also if something goes south then you can redeploy them, you can make use

[00:06:51] of these assets elsewhere. This idea of creating a solution that can be deployed in different

[00:06:56] context is really key to the MashMakes approach and their philosophy. Yes and we'll get into that

[00:07:01] in a minute but for now let's just remind ourselves of some of the characteristics of the

[00:07:06] traditional approach to biochar if we can call it that. I'd say modern tradition. Well,

[00:07:12] listeners might remember from our early episode on biochar but humans have been

[00:07:17] charring organic matter and burying it in their soils for thousands of years. Shout out to

[00:07:23] Indigenous creators of TerraPretta. Well quite the modern iteration of that

[00:07:27] long-standing tradition that we want to talk about, i.e., the production of biochar has

[00:07:32] often been dependent on local context for necessary resources and enterprises. And to be honest I

[00:07:38] imagine this is also true for the TerraPretta operations thousands of years ago. Yes, I don't

[00:07:43] think they were outsourcing any of their charring needs back in the day. We don't want to

[00:07:48] generalise too much and Jake had also pointed out that the focus of MashMakes does reflect

[00:07:52] wider industry trends but there has been a tendency for biochar projects to be very

[00:07:57] site-specific addressing the needs of individual communities or local areas. The standard

[00:08:02] MO is very sort of local, it's very context specific so you know the type of idea that

[00:08:10] okay we're setting up here because there's this farmer that built this partnership with

[00:08:14] this sawmill owner or there's this residue coming from a local sugar mill or whatever

[00:08:19] and this community can benefit in this in that way and because of that we have now

[00:08:23] this project that has been created from that. Jacob noted something else about this local focus

[00:08:28] on the communication side. There's a common practice of doing wonderful storytelling

[00:08:33] about individual projects. You might not be aware of this particularly in the biochar world

[00:08:38] but I'm sure you can imagine this kind of thing all kinds of advertisers do it all the time.

[00:08:43] Look here's Jenny, she's one of our dairy farmers, she has the best laugh in the world.

[00:08:49] Look at her dancing around her field laughing with all her cows. Jenny and her cows have a

[00:08:54] great life, bio butter or whatever you know. Where can I buy Jenny's butter? Have I

[00:09:02] real due in with that storytelling already? You have yeah Jenny's butter sounds as

[00:09:07] cool. Well thank you Tom. In order to be as compelling as possible to investors, buyers,

[00:09:12] the public and co-hosts of any of your podcasts these narratives often tie into a

[00:09:17] specific location or local community to showcase one single project with that particular context.

[00:09:24] I mean it's easy to see why this practice of local focus has emerged. It embodies a

[00:09:29] recognition of the limits of blanket solutions and the realities of the on the ground impacts

[00:09:34] that these projects can have and it makes sense in some practical ways too. For example,

[00:09:39] bespoke individual solutions reduce infrastructure needs that disperse networks of projects rely on.

[00:09:45] Yeah totally get that and I think this is particularly the case for biochar.

[00:09:50] We've talked in the past about all the co-benefits of biochar, the benefits

[00:09:54] for the local community can be substantial. We've also noted how biochar is easy

[00:09:59] to deliver at small scale using any resources on offer at a particular location.

[00:10:04] Totally and I am limp still working on getting my little biochar bakery in my backyard just

[00:10:10] like we've jumped up in season one so watch this space.

[00:10:14] I wait with beta's breath Tom's very exciting. Maybe Jenny and her butter business could

[00:10:20] pair up with my biochar bakery. Okay only if I can come and visit the cows. Agreed deal.

[00:10:25] Anyway having your own biochar bakery in your backyard feels much more feasible than a

[00:10:29] DAC plant on your property. So in a way biochar feels perfectly fit for small scale

[00:10:35] local production that's tailored to that particular locality.

[00:10:39] So we're telling nice stories about Jenny and her cows and Tom and his bakery.

[00:10:45] We're implementing projects that work on a local level with benefits for local communities.

[00:10:50] What's the problem here? Well all of this is great but there are some

[00:10:54] risks to hyper localised approaches. For starters these kinds of projects may be

[00:10:59] innately dependent on local conditions and existing local infrastructure.

[00:11:03] This makes them vulnerable to external factors and changes. Let me give you an example.

[00:11:08] Let me paint you a picture. I might decide to open up my little biochar bakery in some

[00:11:13] specific rural community and my choice might be prompted by the abundance of

[00:11:18] agricultural waste in that area. Perfect. That's just what I need to make my biochar

[00:11:23] it sounds like an ideal spot for it. I sell up my biochar bakery and all goes well

[00:11:27] for a few years until. Let's say the region where I'm established

[00:11:32] suffers a drought or some flooding or some other kind of unpredictable climate

[00:11:36] shift. So those crops that were crucial for my biochar production haven't been

[00:11:40] harvested this year. In the meantime market dynamics change, prices fluctuate

[00:11:44] and the cost of agricultural waste suddenly source. It's not looking so good for my

[00:11:49] little biochar bakery anymore. Everything that once seemed like a perfect match is now

[00:11:54] completely unviable. So sorry you've had to go through that Tom.

[00:11:57] Devastating news. Yeah and I can imagine similar problems with the

[00:12:01] storytelling example. If your marketing focuses entirely on the specificities of

[00:12:06] one project, that is a strong narrative commitment. There might not be much

[00:12:11] wiggle room should any changes arise. I mean what if my little biochar bakery

[00:12:16] is actually a huge success and suddenly it isn't so little anymore?

[00:12:20] Ah well thinking about how that traditional biochar model tends to work now,

[00:12:24] it can be tricky to duplicate a project no matter how successful it is if

[00:12:29] it's been designed to specifically fit one local context. Knowledge may not be

[00:12:33] easily transferable from one project to the next. Systems may have to be

[00:12:37] redesigned which can take a lot of time and resources. Ultimately the success

[00:12:41] of one project is not systematically integrated into the planning and

[00:12:45] execution of the next. Yeah this feels like the kicker for me, it just doesn't

[00:12:50] feel efficient. There is the potential for a lot of duplicated efforts with

[00:12:54] this model and it's going to be a real challenge if our goal is scaling up.

[00:12:59] So what's mash makes doing differently then? Well mash makes have identified

[00:13:05] scaling potential as a cornerstone of their work and as a result they're

[00:13:09] focused on not just creating a solution for a local context but one that they

[00:13:14] believe can be replicated. In many ways we conduct ourselves in the same

[00:13:19] way, we also build it from the context but we make absolutely certain that

[00:13:23] whatever we're building on this location is something that can be ported,

[00:13:26] that can be replicated in other locations and then again having this

[00:13:30] platform that allows us to diversify on different commodities. Another

[00:13:34] thing that's clearly different from some of the competing technologies or

[00:13:38] alternative solutions is that we also can boost revenue quite dramatically by

[00:13:43] also being able to produce energy products like biofuels. So these are some

[00:13:47] of the things and because all of these things are made according to international

[00:13:51] commodities we don't also have to seek out a local market, some niche market

[00:13:56] that might just be able to handle this weird-ass product that is coming from our

[00:14:00] process rather what we can do is we can say well okay well if we set up here

[00:14:05] we will bring an international market for your products to that site so that you

[00:14:10] know that software. Again that diversity of outputs gives them some

[00:14:15] flexibility here shifting away from heavy reliance on a local context and

[00:14:19] creating products for which there's an international market but it's also about

[00:14:23] creating a process that you don't have to redesign every time when you set up

[00:14:27] in a new location. Yeah totally, it's worth reflecting for a moment on how

[00:14:31] there are many different ways of producing biochar because although we've

[00:14:35] talked about biochar before there are of course many different companies offering

[00:14:39] vastly different approaches to the whole process. There are different inputs in

[00:14:43] terms of the types of biomass you're using, there are different outputs in

[00:14:47] terms of the products you're getting at the end of the process and what you can

[00:14:51] do with them and there are of course different ways to make the biochar itself.

[00:14:56] And technology that works for one type of input or creates one type of output

[00:15:00] can't always be applied to another. If you've built a facility specifically

[00:15:03] for a location where there's an excess of one type of agricultural residue you

[00:15:08] can't just simply replicate that if you're expanding somewhere with completely

[00:15:12] different raw materials or a completely different climate. Totally. Now obviously

[00:15:17] if mashmakes are going to expand into different types of geographies and local

[00:15:21] contexts they're not simply going to be able to do the same thing everywhere.

[00:15:25] Rather they're thinking about reducing the individual accommodations they have

[00:15:30] to make each time they expand. We don't believe that we will be developing a single

[00:15:34] model that will bring us to giga-ton scale. Rather it's still eventually going to be a

[00:15:39] patchwork of different models. I'm just trying to make the patches as big as

[00:15:43] possible so that we have you know we're going to cover as many bases as

[00:15:47] possible with the biggest possible patches in that quilt. That's really the idea

[00:15:52] because one thing that we need to become very, very good at and that we're already

[00:15:55] quite good at in mash is how we go to develop the next model that'll scale to

[00:16:00] hundreds of sites. That's really the thing that'll become a strategic

[00:16:04] impetus in the coming years for us. I love hearing about the patchwork model.

[00:16:09] You know as I was trying to wrap my head around this I got into a bit of an

[00:16:14] analogy adventure with Jacob because like when is that not fun? And it was reflecting

[00:16:19] on how this whole picture to me reminds me of like a freelance or portfolio

[00:16:25] career. If you're like me you're probably a freelancer because you recognize

[00:16:29] that you don't want to do just one thing all the time or be reliant on one

[00:16:33] particular income stream. But you also can't have a hundred different

[00:16:37] micro projects that are all running differently. Or you just like completely

[00:16:41] lose your mind and probably struggle to stay afloat. So you have to find that

[00:16:46] balance. Doing work that you can scale, developing a few different models

[00:16:50] that you can use multiple times to improve your efficiency and build your skill

[00:16:54] set. It's just efficient that way you know. That analogy really helped the whole

[00:16:58] concept resonate with me. Sounds very complicated. Nonetheless it's good to

[00:17:03] learn a little bit more about your career up until now as well as the

[00:17:07] mash makes approach to buy a chart production. Yes, it's all a work in progress.

[00:17:11] And of course this focus on replicability isn't just about technology.

[00:17:15] It's also about everything else that goes into making their business

[00:17:19] operate. In some ways you could say that our approach is a slightly boring one

[00:17:24] because in some ways we don't get to tell the stories of this particular

[00:17:28] machine. We set up in this particular village and it had this in this

[00:17:32] effect. The fact of the matter is that the way that we conduct ourselves, the way that

[00:17:35] we execute our business has exactly all of those effects but we kind of go

[00:17:40] with what you could call a one size fits all approach. And we do this because

[00:17:44] we think that for this to really scale for this technology platform to really

[00:17:50] scale you absolutely have to think in terms of assembly line products but also not

[00:17:56] just assembly line products technologies, but also assembly line. This is going to

[00:18:01] sound really boring but like legal structures like so that we don't have five

[00:18:05] different machines and five different legal structures around ownership and

[00:18:09] local participation blah blah blah. We want to have a model that can be replicated

[00:18:13] many many many times that is pretty much the same. Of course taking into account

[00:18:18] whatever local subtleties we want to encompass. So yeah in that way everything at

[00:18:23] all levels of mesh makes is kind of like an assembly line product. It's something

[00:18:27] that can be produced in large volumes but that is not to say that you know we don't

[00:18:32] have a focus on the impact. It is just that we believe we can have in absolute

[00:18:36] terms a heck of a lot more impact by deploying many many many instances of our

[00:18:41] model as opposed to single instances. Something that really struck me about

[00:18:45] talking to Jacob is that yes this makes sense in many ways from a business

[00:18:49] perspective. Even with the most basic understanding of business you can

[00:18:53] understand that but it also makes sense from an impact perspective as he just

[00:18:57] highlighted and if we've learned nothing else this season it should be that

[00:19:01] CDR's primary purpose should be impact. Yeah by creating the opportunity to

[00:19:07] grow this solution faster and bigger your contributing to industry scale up

[00:19:12] and possibly identifying opportunities that you might not spot if you were

[00:19:16] only thinking at that hyper local level. Another thing that Jacob talked about was

[00:19:20] where biochar can have the most impact. We all know that biochar works as a carbon

[00:19:26] removal strategy but of course if applied to the agricultural space it can

[00:19:31] also have seriously impressive impacts on agricultural productivity for

[00:19:34] example. Jacob talked about how this is especially the case for arrowed or

[00:19:38] drought prone land. So when you're thinking about deploying solutions where they have the most impact this is also going to be a key part of the equation.

[00:19:46] Yeah he sheds some pretty impressive stats that they've had through on drought resilience.

[00:19:51] Recently we had these amazing results for soybean it was actually the second season on a plot that had been treated with

[00:19:57] biochar in the first season and this was under a drought we saw that the reference plot so

[00:20:03] the one without biochar had a reduction in yield of something like 65% I don't have the exact figure

[00:20:09] and the plot that was actually treated with our biochar had a drop of only I think 26 or 27%.

[00:20:15] And that's for me that's like that'll make it or break it for that farmer.

[00:20:19] On the subject of impact something I was really keen to understand is where that

[00:20:23] balance lies between focusing on the local and the global because mash makes

[00:20:28] recognize that this isn't an all or nothing situation.

[00:20:31] So the way that we think of it is let's just take one simple quantitative metrics something like doing on

[00:20:38] LCA to find the the GHD the greenhouse gas footprint of some solution that we could deploy in India.

[00:20:46] Okay so we have three different concepts that we could pursue one is that you know it disqualified immediately because it's not particularly attractive.

[00:20:53] One has let's say 100% impact like it's the one that if you look at that case it's the one to go with.

[00:20:59] It just is very very tailored it works there and we're not really seeing that that particular one will replicate very well.

[00:21:07] And then there might be another one that's you know index 90 or index 80 or whatever right lower but

[00:21:13] that we're seeing we can replicate a lot of times that's really how we approach it.

[00:21:18] And that is not a story where we're not talking about the local impact in fact that is absolutely critical.

[00:21:25] We want to be the company in the world that is most serious about measuring our impact.

[00:21:29] We have a colleague Ross Allen who is our chief impact officer that's his job that's his job to make sure that we're ahead of the curve on understanding every

[00:21:37] conceivable aspect of that but we do take a step back and we have to also help our customers understand that that step back

[00:21:45] is needed to reach the wider sort of potential of these types of things.

[00:21:49] So yeah both stories are necessary but as we're lacking in the second part of that story.

[00:21:55] This point about not sacrificing local impact is really key.

[00:21:59] I think I started to hear phrases like one size fits all and production line and maybe got a bit nervous initially

[00:22:06] that we were going to be talking about disregarding local realities entirely.

[00:22:11] But Jacob paints a picture of sustainable development without an us and them mentality that also addresses the global goals we all know we need to reach.

[00:22:21] Yeah and something I think that we were both quite excited about was the focus on that local participation and ownership piece

[00:22:28] that the company is building into their model.

[00:22:31] It's actually key to match makes is ambition and as Jacob said entirely consistent with this idea of creating a model that's highly scalable.

[00:22:39] What would you say to somebody who might accuse this model of using resources of the global south to benefit maybe European agenda

[00:22:51] which is like far too similar to reflections of past colonial issues.

[00:22:56] Well as opposed to first point to be made there is that in the coming plans they will be Indian owners then you could argue okay

[00:23:04] well are we then just funneling money in the direction of depocketed Indian investors and that's not necessarily a big improvement compared to what you were suggesting there Emily

[00:23:13] but we also try very hard to make sure that there is local participation.

[00:23:17] So let's say take the biochar model for instance.

[00:23:20] One obvious thing that we will be probing in the coming time is the proactive use of biochar so that these landless farmers that are prolific

[00:23:28] like they are all over the place in India that we actually come up with programs so we can help them actually improve their soils

[00:23:35] despite them not actually being able to make that investment so that we are trying to use our products proactively to actually improve on their livelihoods.

[00:23:43] So that hopefully will enable us to protect these guys against droughts in the future and that type of thing.

[00:23:50] There's even the idea that we're shoving around right now just having some simple profit sharing schemes

[00:23:56] that could also be a very meaningful thing going forward.

[00:23:59] At the end of the day if it doesn't add up for the local population and if there isn't an equitable model there then it's just not gonna function.

[00:24:06] So I don't think that that is you know the whole idea of scaling, the whole idea of doing something that replicates and that can be done at a very large level

[00:24:15] that would also involve having an equitable model that works with the local community.

[00:24:19] I think that's a prerequisite effect.

[00:24:21] So much of this just feels like common sense when I'm sticking my scaling goggles on.

[00:24:30] Where did you get them Tom? I want to pair.

[00:24:32] I'll send one in the post. Thanks son.

[00:24:34] But one reason we were particularly keen to speak to mash makes is that they've gone some way to formalising this philosophy into a thing they call gigatun thinking.

[00:24:44] I'll let Jacob explain.

[00:24:46] Gigatun thinking is essentially the basic notion that there are certain things, certain decisions we can make today about our business, certain decisions we can make about our technological platform, our legal structures, all of those things that will help us scale into the gigatun range.

[00:25:03] Conversely you could say that there are also certain things we can be doing today that'll make it difficult for us to scale into the gigatun range.

[00:25:09] And it seems like a somewhat banal sort of heuristic to have in mind but it actually really does help.

[00:25:16] So for instance now when I'm contacted by someone who wants to do this and say like this is amazing, but then my immediate follow-up question is okay but can you say anything about the general resource availability in that area of the world?

[00:25:29] Because I'd love to develop this but I need to know that I can find my way to let's say hundreds sites being operational in that area.

[00:25:36] Because otherwise I'm actually neglecting the other cases that I know of already where for instance I use sugarcane bagass in Kenya and that'll get me to a couple of hundred sites.

[00:25:47] Or I use bamboo residues in the north of Kolkata that will bring me to 500 sites or this and that.

[00:25:56] So suddenly I have a frame of reference that allows me to say well the reason why this great idea is not something that we will pursue is because we are really trying to align ourselves with this idea that we need to think in gigatun.

[00:26:09] And it simply doesn't meet that criteria.

[00:26:11] Others absolutely it would make sense for them but for us that's at the core of what we do.

[00:26:18] Having a set of criteria or priorities is key for any business particularly those that are relatively early stage like mash makes with big dreams to scaling.

[00:26:28] We've talked about the attractions of those traditional site specific approaches and they'll always be a place for those but it's clear that gigatun thinking really embeds this idea of global impact from the outset.

[00:26:39] And that feels really appropriate when you're dealing with a solution to a global problem that you need to grow exponentially.

[00:26:45] Yes and I think this really got our imaginations running. What do you need to bear in mind when applying this approach? What lessons can be distilled from mash makes that may have broader application?

[00:26:56] We asked Jacob to outline the key tenets.

[00:26:59] I think of them as a work in progress but these are all of them coupled to observations and sort of specific instances that we've had over the years in mesh.

[00:27:10] And we do find them quite useful as a point of departure for doing gigatun thinking.

[00:27:16] So the first one is really about thinking about how whatever you're doing will scale in terms of overheads and unit economics.

[00:27:25] So for instance these days in mesh we're talking a lot about how we can have financial reporting performance reporting from sites in a manner that doesn't require a lot of manual labor so that let's say if we make a hundred machines.

[00:27:39] Or a hundred sites we don't have 100 times as much overhead that we have to content with so that really economies of scale it's sort of a rephrasing of that.

[00:27:49] Then another one that's really important is this basic idea of saying okay this might be the optimal solution for this particular village, this particular location but because of the fact that it does not port, it does not replicate to other sites.

[00:28:04] It might actually not be that good an idea at least as seen from a gigatun thinking perspective.

[00:28:09] Rather what we want is something that has as much impact as possible locally that will replicate as many times as possible.

[00:28:16] And that almost sort of brings you to the next one that we have to be serious about quantifying the impact and impact for us is not just like GHG greenhouse gases but it's also at least trying to have a stab in the coming time at biodiversity but certainly also the social impact that we have when we're setting this up.

[00:28:33] All of these things need to be measured it to the extent that it's possible quantified to the extent that it's possible and then of course we're not neglecting the value of qualitative measures as well but if you have to be serious about describing and measuring these things.

[00:28:47] Okay let's pause there because there's a lot in here. The point about economies of scale is perhaps an obvious one but it does get forgotten.

[00:28:55] You know I think so much time in the CDR world at the moment is spent on developing innovative approaches, proving concepts and so on as it should be that's all vital but mash makes have their tech.

[00:29:06] They know they can get good results from it and so now they're thinking about how they can feasibly and affordably create a model that delivers at volume.

[00:29:15] I think we sometimes forget the importance of this because we're still at such an early stage in the industry.

[00:29:21] Most CDR companies are only working across a single site or a handful of sites if they're operational at all but over the coming decade this is going to become more and more important.

[00:29:33] I completely agree and Jacob's other points really help contextualize this zoomed out approach especially when it comes to impact.

[00:29:41] In practice his second tenet around replicability is a shift towards longer term thinking potentially for going short term gains for the longer term growth potential and being able to replicate while ensuring you're still getting impact and quantifying it is a really microcosmic example of what the whole industry needs to be doing over the coming years if we're going to hit that gigatun scale.

[00:30:04] Agreed okay let's hear the rest of Jacob's tenets.

[00:30:07] Another one is what we call universality that the idea that you have really has to work in as many places as possible.

[00:30:16] For instance don't make a concept that only works for one investor, make a concept that works for the investor market as a whole and understand what actually drives that market and how things are done.

[00:30:28] The same goes for let's say the legal side of things. Let's not make something that is super optimized for some obscure local legislation but something that will work let's say across India or even across regions.

[00:30:39] Another thing that I find extremely exciting and that I really see in our case biochairs being a part of is the idea of a bad word these days would be to call it virality but maybe another slightly more agreeable term would be self perpetuation.

[00:30:54] The fact that when we set up a site we really have to think about how that site can pave the way for future sites.

[00:31:00] It could be because the local population is so happy about us having set it up that they now become ambassadors or advocates for others to set it up.

[00:31:10] That's an example another more technical version of that is that the biochar is actually something you can use in arid lands to create new biomass systems.

[00:31:19] Well, what do we need to scale our platform? Well, we need biomass residues and each of those biomass systems will have a main output that could be produced for the benefit of local populations.

[00:31:29] It will also have a residual output. Well, that residual output could be the basis for our new machines new sites.

[00:31:37] And then the last one that's sort of been added a bit more recently is really avoiding naval gazing.

[00:31:43] The fact that the obvious solution, the obvious dots that ought to be connected are not necessarily placed in the same zip code as yourself.

[00:31:51] It might be that you have a technology that has more potential in other parts of the world than the one that you're currently in.

[00:31:57] It might be that there are funders in other parts of the world who are more interested in it.

[00:32:01] This can be done on many many different levels but really getting out of your comfort zone and trying to go from your immediately obvious plan to a plan that has more impact.

[00:32:11] Again, lots of food for thought here. In particular, virality. We touched on it a little earlier but biochar is one solution that can inherently lend itself to this idea of self perpetuation by improving the quality of soils biochar can actually pave the way for future sites.

[00:32:29] If the right lines are targeted you can get more biomass ultimately leading to more residues for biochar production. That's a pretty nifty system.

[00:32:37] Nifty indeed and Jacob points out how you can go beyond this. For instance, it might be about proving the concept to investors or building alliances with local advocates.

[00:32:47] However you approach it, this idea of building self perpetuation into projects is a clever way of making that path towards scale a little easier to navigate.

[00:32:57] Jacob clearly sees the whole world as full of potential in recognising that the best investor or the best solution might not be the one right in front of him.

[00:33:07] That feels like a really empowering way to engage with the world, particularly when working on a global problem like this one.

[00:33:13] Jacob has a lot of great ideas and he was really humble when we asked him to think about the broader application of gigatun thinking.

[00:33:21] But it's clear that there is immense value here for those also thinking big about CDR more broadly.

[00:33:27] I used to do research within what you can call sort of innovation methods and one of the things that are really disliked about that, in many cases those general lack of intellectual honesty.

[00:33:40] People are assuming that it's a one size fits all and this just works everywhere. If you really dig down it's like that doesn't work there, it certainly didn't work in many phases of meshmail.

[00:33:51] It makes this development so I feel the same way about this gigatun thinking idea.

[00:33:57] It is appropriate, certainly for mesh that's kind of why we came up with it.

[00:34:02] But I hesitate to make too many statements about the applicability of the idea beyond that.

[00:34:08] Although I do think that there are certainly some areas, some organizations people who could benefit from this type of thinking.

[00:34:15] So for instance if you take a well established company they've been in a certain business for 50 or 100 years.

[00:34:22] On earth are they going to suddenly shift their business to in a manner that will allow them to suddenly have a gigatun impact?

[00:34:29] It just doesn't really make sense does it right? And there's also of course a need for companies that actually do the more tailored work for the specific instances right absolutely it is imperative.

[00:34:41] And I would also even go so fast to say that in earlier stages of mesh development absolutely do it in an extent we didn't have a choice.

[00:34:49] We were driven by what was the next project that we could get funding for right like it wasn't at all a strategic thing so we are at a stage now where we can take a step back and say okay

[00:34:58] well how do we want to conduct ourselves now and that's what we're doing but I don't think we had that privilege earlier on.

[00:35:04] So I think that that is a very important thing to note here.

[00:35:09] Throwing it back to our 2023 year in review episode.

[00:35:14] Biocart is the CDR method that's furthest along in terms of the commercialization and the delivery of the carbon removal right?

[00:35:22] Yes. So it does make sense for gigatun thinking to be focused on biochar in this first instance but I really don't think these tenants are exclusive to biochar I think that they have so much applicability across every CDR method.

[00:35:36] Yeah I agree it's kind of more like a way of thinking about how we scale up than it is particularly like this is how we make a lot of biochar even like this is how we make a lot of CDR you know

[00:35:47] I think it could be even applicable outside of this industry to a certain extent.

[00:35:51] Yeah I for one am pretty excited and very keen to kind of track the progress of these tenants as they mature alongside the industry.

[00:36:00] Yeah nice. I must say tomathy I have been on a bit of a journey with this one.

[00:36:05] Pretel.

[00:36:06] As I mentioned I was a bit worried we were just going to be moving back towards blanket solutions and particularly like blanket solutions for people in the global south imposed by people from the global north.

[00:36:17] But what I think I'm recognizing is we need to scale this and so in that I see like a real need to balance the two things of holding those important local aspects

[00:36:31] and empowering those parts of it whilst also thinking about that global scale and global impact that this kind of technology can we know it can have that so really balancing those two in order to allow biochar and CDR and who knows what other technology to like fulfill its greatest potential.

[00:36:53] Yeah reflecting back on our conversation with Jacob and mash makes it reminded me of some conversations I've had in the past where people have said that it doesn't make a huge amount of difference to the atmosphere where the CO2 is particularly emitted nor does it particularly matter where that CO2 is removed from from an atmospheric perspective.

[00:37:14] However, it does matter to us. It matters to human society and also beyond the human world you know looking from a biodiversity perspective you know where we build these projects.

[00:37:25] Maybe that's why the balance feels so important because if we drop one or the other then some of the co benefits of these CDR solutions are lost right.

[00:37:34] If you drop the focus on how things can work in a local context then you've lost the co benefits of like supporting local communities and even supporting local soil health and all those things right.

[00:37:46] They can just so easily be like pushed by the way side of the only thing you focus on is getting as much carbon out of the atmosphere as possible.

[00:37:53] But similarly if you don't focus on scaling up the carbon removal stuff then you lose that benefit.

[00:37:59] So the fact that there are so many co benefits calls us to look at this balance more delicately I think.

[00:38:08] Scaling up huh? Tricky stuff who'd do it?

[00:38:11] Scaling up, who'd bother?

[00:38:13] So five episodes all about scaling up. It's a big topic by its very nature. I feel like we'll be coming back to this somewhere down the line.

[00:38:22] I feel as though it's now entrenched in our thinking.

[00:38:25] We're going to be away from your ear holes now for a little while so like enjoy the last of us right now because we're going to be away for a little while.

[00:38:34] But we look forward to being back with you in the not too distant future.

[00:38:37] We cannot wait.

[00:38:39] Do stay in touch lovely listeners and if there's anything you think we should cover in future episodes or if you've got stories you want to tell, drop us a message.

[00:38:46] We promise we don't buy.

[00:38:48] Reach out across the podosphere.

[00:38:51] Until next time.

[00:38:52] See you soon.

[00:38:53] See ya.

[00:38:55] Thanks thank you to everyone who makes this show possible.

[00:39:02] Our researcher and fact checker Henry Irvine.

[00:39:05] Our graphic designer, Rekha Campbell.

[00:39:07] Our composer, Sam Carter.

[00:39:09] Our producer, Ben Weaver Hinks.

[00:39:11] And our executive producer, Sam Floyd.

[00:39:14] I've been Emily Swaddle.

[00:39:16] And I've been Tom Proveety.

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